Microsoft word - nancy

I’d like to begin by asking you, Nancy, where and when you were born? I was born in Waterloo, Iowa, February 21st, 1941. Could you talk a little bit about your family, like brothers and sisters, parents. Did you grow up with your parents? My father was diagnosed with schizophrenia when he was in World War II, a veteran, and I was separated from him at the age of two and then I saw him once when I was…when I was five he tried to kidnap me. When I was nine, I saw him in the hospital where he had been beaten up by the attendants and he had all kinds of tubes sticking out of him, you know. I was really scared. I guess they called me up there because they thought he was going to die, but he survived that. Than I had a stepfather and two half brothers and my mother supported the family because my stepfather was sick. So, she was like an early women’s libber. Is there anything else about…you said you grew up in Waterloo. Was there anything else that stands out that’s kind of memorable about your childhood in Waterloo, maybe say in school…like what was your experience in elementary school? Well, I was a very good student and I liked to go to school. When I was two years old, before I started school…um…my cousin told me not to go down to the north end of town because the niggers lived there and they carried knives and they were stabbing you, so my mother took me to meet the janitor where she had gone to high school and he happened to be a black man and he sat me on his lap and my mother instructed me that my cousin was full of it. There weren’t knives being carried. Black people were honorable and respected members of the community. That’s my most memorable childhood memory. In school I did very well, but I didn’t socialize much. I was like the teacher’s pet and belonged to many organizations and I starred in a couple of school plays, but I was not popular. I scored 99.9 percent in the intelligence test statewide and I did very well in all my subject except music. Can’t sing. You and many people. Some people can’t sing, but they think they can. I guess we all can. We all can sing. It’s not so important to be able to carry a tune. You mentioned when we met for the pre-interview that at some point you moved to Iowa City. I went to the University of Iowa and I graduated Phi Beta Kappa. I was in the (unintelligible), a three year program for obtain a PHD. I was going to…my professor was trying to get me to (unintelligible) to study in France, but I had a divorce at that time. I moved to New York City and met someone else and started running a daycare in New York City with my second husband. And I dropped out of the PHD program. When in this time period, if at all yet, did you first receive mental health treatment or a diagnosis? When I was younger, from the age of sixteen, I started painting, I noticed I would get extremely elated while making a painting which would, you know, be a period of about two or three days and then when the painting was finished, I would feel elated, dejected that what I had done was worthless, not any good. That I wasn’t any good as a painter and I didn’t know it then, but this experience happened repeatedly, and would end with the creative process, but in hindsight I can see that it was the seeds of a bipolar disorder appearing at that time, although very mild. Once I was diagnosed with…well, I had several different diagnosis over the years, but the diagnosis…I think they’ve changed their terminology about…what they diagnosed me now is as schizophrenic affective and when I have an episode I have delusions. When I have an episode, I experience periods of being high, and periods of being low. I wasn’t hospitalized until 1972 after I moved to New York City and I had broken up with my second husband and, ah… Was that in Belleview or St. Vincent’s…you mentioned those… I was hospitalized in Belleview and I was given Haldol upon admission and…I was admitted there because I had taken LSD and was tripping and, ah, they gave me Haldol, a drug which I’ve since discovered I’m allergic to in the sense that it makes me hear voices that I never hear unless I’m on that drug. And, also, the Haldol makes me have, um, I can’t remember anything at all from that hospitalization for the first three or four days, or I don’t even know how long before I suddenly had memories of what was going on and I discovered that drug makes me have blackouts. And, that was the first drug that they gave to me, and I remember being, at that time, was in a support group at the hospital and the woman said to me…um…”You’ve been here before. You’ve been here in this group many times before.” I had no memory of it. And she said, “You told us that you had been raped over a hundred times,” and I had no memory of saying that, although I knew that was true. So, preceding your first hospitalization, you had been sexually abused quite a bit? No, I’m thinking, you know, all this stuff happened so many years ago that I’m getting the…that last memory was from a later hospitalization. I’d never been raped until….the first time I was admitted, I was gang raped on a ping pong table in a (unintelligible) where there were no attendants or anyone supervising the patients. This was at Belleview in 1972. And after that happened to me, unconsciously…unconsciously my mind thought…this happened to me in a hospital. What happens to you in a hospital is for your own good. This is suppose to happen to you and after that I had no ability to say no to anyone who might want to take advantage of me. And after that point I was raped over a hundred times. But it’s understandable why my memory is like that, juggled up in my mind because the abuse was very traumatic. And my personality was totally destroyed after that first hospitalization and the gang rape. Did anyone at the hospital…so, no one at the hospital knew that this had happened and… They knew that it had happened but they did not give me any therapy or counseling about it. It’s only been in recent years that I tried to seek out counseling. It was as though I had that disorder that Vietnam veteran’s get…I think it’s called stress. I suffered from that for many years and…um…all they did was, in those days they didn’t put undies on you. They didn’t let you wear your own clothing. You didn’t get to wear panties and they put you in a robe that was wide open in the back and the men…they had co-ed wards and the men could see everything you had as you walked the hall. They put on a pair of men’s shorts on my underneath that hospital gown and they transferred me to a different ward and nothing was every said. In fact, I sort of didn’t even remember that that had happened to me. I couldn’t understand in later life why I thought I had…at times, I thought I was just promiscuous. At other times, I didn’t know why I couldn’t…um…not have these experiences happening to me over and over again. And finally, when I moved to Ithaca I was in a mental hospital and I went into the laundry room and a patient came in and he started to touch me and I yelled at him, “Don’t touch me. I’ll report you.” And, he pulled back his hand and he was going to hit me and then he thought better of it and put his hand down and went outside the laundry room and from that time I’ve been able to protect myself as much as any woman reasonably can against unwanted advances. So, that was like a victory for me but that took twenty years. That’s a lot of things to have gone through and to not have been supported and, um, to then have it set off repeated victimizations…when you went back into the hospital the second time, did it…was something like what happened the first time what precipitated it again, or how did you end up in the hospital the second time? I actually can’t remember. There were so many hospitalizations after that, you know, like dozens upon dozens, I don’t know. I did remember my friends telling me that medications were bad for me and I should go off of them and that they would turn me into a zombie and, ah, I did go off of them and I would be okay for three or four months and then what would usually happen was that I would take off my clothes and run out in the street naked and the police would pick me up and take me to the hospital. I don’t think it’s an accident that I would take off my clothes and go naked considering that gang rape and what happened to me subsequently because the word would spread in my neighborhood that any time I got that far away look in my eyes, I was full of bliss and in love with the universe and anybody could come up to me at those times and have a free ride and the word spread and men would just wait for that to happen with me. So…um…sometimes I would go out in the street with my clothes on and someone would drive up and I would ask them to take me to the hospital. Instead, they’d take me to a hooker’s motel and take advantage of me and drop me off in the vicinity of the hospital. That happened once. But, ah…I couldn’t find…I went off of medication…then later when I did take the medication faithfully, exactly as prescribed, what my friends told me, did happen. I did become a zombie and I would be…one year I was on Prolixin and I was in bed twenty hours a day. Getting up to eat and go to the bathroom. In those earlier years, what medication were you on? Um…I didn’t stay on anything. As soon as I got out of the hospital, I stopped taking the medication, whatever it was that they gave me. And finally, after many years…and I would be in an altered state for months at a time on the streets without being hospitalized, but during one hospitalization after about maybe seven or eight years, this had gone on. The doctor, one of the psychiatrists, took me aside and said that I wasn’t having LSD flashbacks. I had schizophrenia and he had a patient who was on Thorazine for twenty years and she hadn’t had a single episode in all that time and he suggested to me very strongly that if I take Thorazine regularly and consistently that I wouldn’t be having episodes every four or five months. So, I did what he said and it really helped me a lot except that at times, like I said before, the dose was way too high and I was like a zombie on it. But at least, I wasn’t crazy. You listed a number of these different places that you ended up being hospitalized, are there any memorable experiences about these other places. The first one is a horrific memory. Are there any other memorable experiences and as you progressed through these different hospital stays? Well, what I didn’t mention Roosevelt Hospital. That was in New York about….maybe, 1981, around there…somewhere around there. Um…I was pregnant and they gave me Haldol despite my objections which I said made me hear very hellish voices and I’d have horrible hallucinations. I mean, that would be like being in hell. The worse experience of hell on Haldol and I said I refused to take it. I thought I had the right to refuse and they said to me, “If you refuse to take this, we’re going to send you to Manhattan State.” I said, “Okay, I’ll go to Manhattan State,” and then they said, “We’re giving you this drug anyway no matter what you say,” and they injected me with it and I heard those hellish voices saying all kinds of curse words like shit, hell, fuck, damn, damn you, and they were so loud and…um…I couldn’t hear my own thoughts and I don’t know if they gave me that Haldol because I was pregnant and they thought it was the only drug that they could give me, but anyway, I was in that hospital and on that drug and I started doing calisthenics in my bed…somersaults and backward somersaults, and I did that all night long and the attendant was sitting in there right with me and she did not stop me from doing that and I had a miscarriage and I’m sure I had the miscarriage because I was doing all those somersaults in my bed for eight hours straight. The next day I had a miscarriage and they took six vials of blood from me and lost the blood and had to take it again, but the thing is after I had the miscarriage, they took me off the Haldol and it was such a relief. I don’t know what they put me on. I don’t remember, but as soon as they took me off the Haldol, those horrible, horrible, horrible voices went away. And you had tried to tell me not to give it to you. Right, and they threatened me. They forced me to take it. And even when you said, “Okay, I will go to Manhattan,” that wasn’t good enough? What happened after that period of time. Um…I had that (unintelligible) in the hospital and then shortly…just a few years after that that I moved to Ithaca, New York. I moved to Ithaca in about 1984 and I, I think I was hospitalized at Willard in 1985 or 1986, I’m not sure. And, again, I got off the meds I was taking and when I went to Willard, I refused medication and they honored that request. But, consequently, I did not come out of my altered state of craziness until finally they got a court order to say that I had to take medication and I got a lawyer to fight that court order, but in the meantime the doctors made a deal with me that if I would agree to take the medication, they would release me in a certain period of time. So, I went along with that agreement and I took the medication and I did respond very favorably to it in the sense that my thinking was not disordered but it leave me feeling again like a zombie, with a very unpleasant physical sensation in my body and my verbal ability to really speak my mind or do anything creative. So, when I got out of the hospital, I went back to Thorazine because that seemed to be the one drug of all the ones that had been given to me, that worked the best for me, especially when I adjusted the dosage myself according to what I need without waiting to call the doctor and find out if it was okay to raise or lower it. For the most part, my doctors worked with me and let me do that. Was your experience then that adjusting this Thorazine helped to keep you out of the hospital then, subsequently or…. Yes, because if I needed more, I needed to take it right away to avoid hospitalization. If I would have waited for however long it would have taken for the doctor to answer my phone call, it would have been too late. I would have been in the middle of an episode and hospitalized. So, it was very important to me to double or triple it immediately if I saw that I was getting very manicee if I wasn’t sleeping well…if I wasn’t sleeping at all. There was a period in my life when I was awake for three weeks without any sleep at all. So, I need to…I need to be able to test my medication because of the bipolar thing because I go really high or really low, I don’t want to be flying at the moon and I don’t want to be practically catatonic, either. You were saying that…so, there’s some good things that Thorazine did for you, but that it also, at times, you felt like a zombie. Was there anything that helped during those times that you felt like a zombie to lessen that or was that something that you just ended up struggling and living with. I lived like a zombie for many years because I thought the doctor’s word was sacred and you had to take the medicine exactly like they prescribed it. I didn’t realize that in the hospital I would need an extremely high dose to come around and that later on the outside, I wouldn’t need as much. I would be continuing to take that high dose and be literally a vegetable just sitting in my chair or lying in bed waiting to die. That’s what I did for many years. I sat there thinking and waiting to die. Finally, at one point I started lowering the meds myself and that I found was the only thing that worked. To avoid that was to take a lower dose of the meds. You mentioned that you now take Cyprexia(?) and Wisperdol(?)…when did that change occur and how is that going for you? I had been taking Thorazine for about twenty years like the doctor had said his other patient did and I started becoming…started getting to the point where I couldn’t take it any more without nearly overdosing all dying with my heart stopping or not being able to breath. That happened a few times. I went to the hospital really scared and then, um, I stopped taking the Thorazine and landed in the hospital and I had a hard time. They were trying to find a medication that worked for me. I went into Cayuga Medical and they transferred me…they gave me Serentil and they also gave me prolovine(?) and they didn’t change the med, they just sent me to the Hampton Psyche and I was still taking Serentil. This was last summer and the Serentil(?) wasn’t helping me. I was just really crazy and nobody seemed to care. The doctors didn’t seem to care that I wasn’t getting any better and I had to fight to get them to change medication to something else. And, they put me on Risperdal which seemed to work but when I got home, I had a couple of episodes on that and for about three or four months, my sleep was very, very poor and I seemed to be a nervous wreck. So I contacted, um, a psychiatric nurse and she suggested that I take Zypraxil(?) or Benadrel(?) to help me sleep and this past year I’ve had an awfully, awfully, awfully hard time trying to find a medicine or a medicine combination that would work for me and give me the same kind of results that I liked when I was on Thorazine where I was functioning well and living a normal life, being up and active and not having distorted thinking or delusions or delusions of grandeur or whatever. And, I think after a year’s time, I found that if I take a Cypraxia(?) at night to help me sleep and the Risperdal in the morning to kind of energize me, that that seems to work very well for me. When I was taking the Risperdal at night, I kept waking up every hour on the hour and it was very unpleasant. If I took the Cypraxia(?) alone, I’d end up being a zombie. Doing nothing but sleeping and eating and going to the bathroom. So the combination of the two seemed to work well in my case. I would like to back step a little bit again to some of the hospital stays and ask you whether there was anything in particular about the stays that were unhelpful or helpful and it could be about, you know, the environment, about staff, about treatment…and if you would, if you do remember which place it was and something that was going on, that would be good. And if you would specify that. Manhattan State was very hard because there was a lot of violence among the patients there and, ah, the people who were perpetrating the violence were not put in…in solitary confinement, but the victims of the violence were put into solitary confinement and I felt that the staff was so afraid of the violent patients that they, they…ah, because…that they didn’t want to step on their toes in any way and, ah, I was very afraid. There was just like two woman helpers. That was a very bad hospitalization for me and I was there for six weeks and…. That was when I was in New York City, probably maybe 1982 maybe or…I was staying at the hospital trying to find housing. I couldn’t find a place to live that I could afford in, in New York City. So, you had a need for housing and you knew…. Right. And then I found out that there were people there who had been there for two years waiting for housing and hadn’t gotten it yet. So, as soon as I got onto the ward, the very first day, I knew I made the most horrible mistake in my life by voluntarily admitting myself. And then when I tried to leave, the psychiatrist, the social worker and the doctor changed my status from voluntary to involuntary and, ah, I couldn’t reach the lawyer. You had to have a dime to call the lawyer. I didn’t have a dime. You had to use a pay phone and I never got any answer. I wanted to talk to a lawyer as soon as I was admitted and I never did talk to a lawyer the whole six weeks I was there. That was very bad. The social worker should have contacted the lawyer and had the lawyer talk to me. Um…. And at that time, was it posted that you had a right to contact…. Yeah, it was posted and the number was there because I had to dial the number but trying to get a dime and then, you know, I’d just reach a secretary or something that would say, “Well, we’ll call you back,” and they never contacted me at all during that whole time. So, finally a friend of mine came up to see the team, the treatment team, and told them he would pay my airplane ticket to fly home to my mother in California and my mother sent a telegram saying, “Come home,” and they put me on a flight, but that was the most horrible experience of all. I had so many horrible experiences, but that was the worse hospital I had ever been in. And was that the last time you were hospitalized before moving to Ithaca? Oh, I don’t remember. I think it was. I really don’t remember though. You’re remembering though that these experiences happened almost twenty years ago. But when you moved to Ithaca, your first experience was at Willard, that you talked a little bit about before. No, my first experience that….now they call it (unintelligible) a Miracle…I forget what they called it before. They changed the name. The hospital, the local hospital. Tompkins County Hospital. I was so scared to go to Willard because I had heard such horror stories from other people, but they were in the process of closing Willard or getting ready to close Willard when I was there. They wouldn’t let me eat the sugar that I needed. I needed sugar and I would take a lot of packets and they told me I couldn’t do that and then when they told me I couldn’t do that, I stuck them down my bra and they grabbed me and…two men grabbed me and…I mean attendants, and they put me in solitary confinement for trying to take sugar. I don’t know, then they sent someone around to see if I was bruised up at all or if I was manhandled or…I just had a couple of little bruises…just minor little things, like fingerprints, maybe, on my arms, but…um…I guess it’s like a child and you like sugar. I did think that was kind of an extreme response, you know. Because you crave something sweet and the attendants have their sweet soda that they are drinking right in front of you in the day room while you have nothing…um…I wanted those little sugar bags for comfort. I didn’t have sweet soda. Didn’t have money for sweet soda or potato chips or whatever other treats they might have. They would be eating in front of you. I thought that was kind of an extreme reaction to put me in solitary confinement for that. You mentioned back in Manhattan State, now going back again, that, you know, that people that were victimized by other’s violence were some times put in solitary confinement and this is the first you’ve mentioned yourself being put in there. Did you have other experiences where that was the case and…. I remember being put into solitary confinement for pulling fire alarm and I think that was justified, you know. I think that was something…there was a good reason to punish me for doing that. Especially since I did it three times and other times I was put in straight jackets. But they never had that cruel thing in New York City that they have up here where they tie you down to a bed and you can’t move and because you can’t move, your muscles start aching and hurting all over and you go through extreme physical torture cause you can not move at all. They never did that. I would really rather be put in a room where I could at least sit up or stand up or lay down then be strapped flat on my back to a bed. That happened to me at Cayuga Medical and that was such a horrible experience. That was maybe in…um…no, that was a while….that was when I first came to Ithaca before I…they, they sent me there before they sent me to Willard. I guess that was about 1986. So it was allowable, but I think they still do that to people. At the present moment, I think they still do that and if they were strapped down and saw what it does to your muscles hurting you so bad, not to be able to move for hours at a time, I don’t think they would do that to people. They would find some other thing, even if they had to make a padded room where you can’t hurt yourself, even if you’re banging your head against the wall. That would be preferable. They also, when they put you in solitary confinement, they always put a person right by your…an attendant sat right by your door the whole time you were in solitary confinement and spoke to you and talked to you and was there for you if you needed them. If you wanted a drink or whatever. That was a very humane way. You were not totally alone and yet you weren’t strapped down to a bed. Is there anything else then about these stays that stands out as being unhelpful or helpful. Well, when I was in Belleview, it was really helpful. There was an attendant who had one room…of course, I was in the old Belleview before the new one and it was very dismal and there were no windows and mice running around and very dismal, you know, old ratty furniture, but the new one was all different, but in that old Belleview there was one bright spot. This attendant had fixed up a room with windows and plants and games, board games, and activities…little activities…and, um…in the olden days, they would just lock you up and you had nothing to do all day long. They didn’t have any classes. They didn’t have any…um…arts and crafts. They didn’t have anything. You just sat there, you know. It was pretty horrible. You just sat there. A lot of times, people were so doped up they couldn’t even talk to each other, but, anyway, in this one little room she had…she’d have little dances and socials in the evening at different times with coolade and popcorn. She happened to be a black woman which, you know, was just…just what she happened to be, but it was a little spot of brightness. She tried to make it nicer and make nice things happen. I think she was ahead of her time. Now a days if you go to Cayuga Medical…I don’t know what it’s like in New York City any more, but…there are different things to do during the day. Classes… Yes, because I’ll give you an example of last summer which is current. When they saw I wasn’t making any improvement after a month at the short term hospital Cayuga Medical, they sent me to the more permanent facility, Binghamton Psyche. They didn’t really give me time to organize my affairs to be moving out of town away from my friends and my home or to notify my family about where I would be and this was very upsetting to me that they just decided I would go and I would go when it was convenient for them. That they didn’t work with me even though I was not in my right mind, I was in my right mind enough to know that I wanted to take care of certain things. They didn’t work with me. I got so angry that I cursed at my case manager which is not…I mean, he told me I cursed at him, but I don’t remember doing that, but I can see why I did because, it was out of character, but I was so upset that I didn’t have a day or two to get things in order. That’s so detrimental to your mental health to move you around like you’re a piece of baggage. Yes, and that’s an area that really needs to be improved upon as far as the sensitivity of the people who are suppose to do that like social workers or whoever would be…even the psychiatrists…and, ah, yeah, that’s…yeah, no matter how out of it you may be, you’re still a human being. You still have feelings and emotions and needs and you still in some part of yourself know who you are. And, to treat you as if you don’t, that’s very detrimental to being, to being healed emotionally. And even though you might be put on meds and discharged, a series of that kind of experiences of being treated like inanimate objects scars you to the point that you can’t hold your head up when you walk down the street. So…the studies say we need more sensitivity and more feedback and the project during this, this area is helpful because it gives, gives people like myself the chance to say their side of things and how they feel about how they’ve been treated. One thing that I thought was really good at Binghamton Psyche was they had a computer room and a lot of people were taking advantage of it. And also they had movies. I think they were doing a pretty good job down there, but, again, a lot depends on, on where you’re at and….I find that different people are treated differently. And one thing that upset me down there was they kept threatening…some of the higher ups kept threatening to take away our smoking privileges all together and smoking…I don’t know what you might say about it, but as far as…everyone has to die at some time anyway, and smoking helps to deal with the stress that you’re going through in painful times like that. It’s calming, like a pacifier. It’s like a pacifier and to try to quite smoking when you’re in the middle of going through something as serious as a psychosis or a psychotic outbreak, is inhumanely cruel. I mean, it’s hard enough for people who are sane to quite smoking under optimum conditions. So, you’ve just brought up an example of something that can exacerbate what you’re calling a psychotic break…um…you know, taking away your right or privilege to smoke while you’re being confined and you’re saying is inhumane. Are there other things that you’ve found that, you know, exactly exacerbate the, the difficulty you’re having in terms of treatment or hospital stay? I think, um, too many people in a psyche ward are confined in too small a space. And I heard about other institutions where people are overcrowded. When I was there at Binghamton Psyche they were doing some remodeling. I don’t know if that resulted in so many cubic feet per person or…when there are too many people in one space, you start feeling like you’re part of a herd. You start feeling like an animal and people start treating you like animals because…um…you are all herded up together in long lines or whatever. So, if they’re going to spend money for hospitals, you know…put fewer people in a larger space. I want to go back to something I didn’t ask you anything about that you brought up early on in relating your experiences and story and that was your dad having had some problems in this area, and diagnosis and receiving treatment. Is there anything else that you might want to comment on in terms of your, your experiences in relation to his or…. My father, you know, it’s like, even when changes are made about things that happened previously can continue to be detrimental to other people for years and years to come because my father had a lobotomy and over a hundred shock treatments without any anesthesia. He was nearly killed by being brutalized and beaten up by the attendants and, ah, that’s how I related to hospitals. I was afraid that I would be given a lobotomy or shock treatments. It certainly contributed to my paranoia or maybe it wasn’t paranoia, but, ah, it was a horrible psychological terror to live through. Did you find out that personnel at the hospitals or staff or outside…you received outpatient treatment…were sensitive about that and understanding about how that reality for you, in terms of family history, could contribute to your own fears about treatment? Well, no one every spoke to me about my family when I was in…hospitalized or…um…even in outpatient, I can’t remember but…. Many times, different attendants would assure me at different hospitals that there were no shock treatments at all being done in that particular hospital. I don’t know if they were telling the truth or not, though, because I know some people get shock treatments, but that’s kind of, you know, distressing. And did you find that later on, um, if not early on, that people in the hospital asked whether you had some trauma in your life…like your first hospitalization, you were gang raped. Did you find that people, when you…. No one ever said to me, “Did anything happen in previous hospitalizations that might make you fearful.” Nobody, ever, ever even alluded to…you just don’t get any…you don’t get any substantial therapy in a mental hospital. If you’re going to get that, you have to be an outpatient and go to a psychoanalyst or a psychologist. You only see your psychiatrist for five or ten minutes. All he’s interested in is how you’re doing that day. I’m wondering whether there’s anything besides what you already said that you would want a researcher or historian to know about your experience in the mental health system? My own personal experience has been the more knowledge and more control I have over my own life… over what medicines I take or what dosages I take or what treatment I have…whether I have therapy or not…the more control I have in my hands, the more I thrive as a human being, the more I succeed at finding a way that works for me and maintain my self respect and autonomy. I want to thank you for doing this interview. Before I turn off the tape, actually that was quite a summary kind of statement about knowledge and control and how important that is to being able to retain respect and autonomy. Is there anything else that you’d like to say or…. I just hope that the young people who…in my last hospitalization, there were a number of young people, maybe nineteen or twenty or in their twenties, who are already getting into the mental health system…I hope things will be a lot better for them than it was for me. Well, I hope so, too. And again, thank you for contributing to this Oral History Project. It’s now about 2:50.

Source: http://www.community-consortium.org/projects/nancy.pdf