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Dr. Robert Rowen on Cholesterol
DM: Dr. Joseph Mercola
RR: Dr. Robert Rowen
who is a Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Johns Hopkins University and the University of
California, San Francisco. He has been board-certified and recertified in family practice
Metal Toxicology.
He first became interested in natural medicine in 1983, actually migrated up to Alaska to fulfill some of his public health requirements, and wind up staying there for a few decades before he went back down to practice in California where he is now, because he found the person that he connected wiWKDWDYHU\KLJKOHYHO+H¶VSUDFWLFLQJQRZLQthe Santa Rosa area of California. And he currently serves as the chief editor for Second Opinion, which is a printed newsletter that is distributed across the country. Thank you for joining us today. RR: ThaQN\RX,W¶VDQKRQRUWREHZLWK\RX
subject for the majority of Americans, but fortunately not for the most people who read
this newsletter, because we give them materials, information, support, and science that
really disputes this whole cholesterol theory, which was popularized about six decades
DJRSULPDULO\IURP$QFHO.H\V¶ZRUNEXWFHUWDLQO\Irom people before him and others.
,¶PZRQGHULQJKRZ\RXILUVWEHFDPHLQterested in these cholesterol issues, and what experience you have in this area ± not only for cholesterol, but for health and for treatments. Can you expound on that? RR: I can remember the ads not too long ago where somebody clutches his heart on
televiVLRQDQGVD\V³&KROHVWHURO kills, FKROHVWHURONLOOV´WU\LQJ to educate people about
cholesterol. This was even before statins came on the scene.
Yes, cKROHVWHUROLVLQYROYHG:K\",W¶VEHFDXVHWKH\IRXQGFKROHVWHUROLQSODTXHVLQpeople with coronary artery disease. But you have to think about this. Guys like us ± you and me ± are going to get involved with biochemistry to try to understand why these things happen,WMXVWGRHVQ¶WKDSSHQ like the wind blows out there. It has to happen for a reason, especially because cholesterol is a critical part of our body; oXUFHOOVFDQ¶WOLYHwithout it. In the brain, cholesterol is quite abundant. It forms the skeletal structure of the EUDLQ¶VPHPEUDQH. Cholesterol is the raw material for all of our steroid hormones and vitamin D, so we need cholesterol. In fact, we need it so much that our body makes it. It makes a lot of it. Our liver makes it. And guess what? Your brain makes it. Your neurons make it. Think about this for a second. Your neurons are making it for a reason. Just logically speaking, if you take a statin drug, which poisons the enzyme HMG-CoA reductase WKDW¶VWKHVDPHHQ]\PHLQWKHOLYHUDQGWKDW¶VWKHVDPHHQ]\PHLQ\RXUEUDLQ+HOOR"Your brain is not going to make the cholesterol that it needs, so you can expect ± you can predict ±\HDUVGRZQWKHOLQHWKDWWKHUH¶VJRLQJWREHDSUREOHPs, and wH¶UHVHHLQJLWnow with statin drugs affecting the brain. What about it? LHW¶VVD\, you find cholesterol in all that plaque. The theory is that if you lower cKROHVWHUROWKDWPD\EH\RX¶OOJHWless KHDUWGLVHDVH,W¶VDUHDVRQDEOHWKHRU\EXWLW¶VGHIHFWLYHIRUDSDUWLFXODUUHDVRQ7KHFKROHVWHUROWKDWLVLQSODTXHLVPRGLILHGFKROHVWHURO,W¶VR[LGL]HGFKROHVWHURO7KHUHLVDQH[FHOOHQWUHVHDUFKRQDQLPDOVZKHUe they fed animals plenty of cholesterol in their diet and they did just fine. But when they gave them even small amounts of tainted cholesterol, meaning oxidized cholesterol, within weeks it showed up in fatty streaks in their arteries. We know why now. There are receptors in the endothelial cells that are the lining of your arteries. There are receptors there for oxidized cholesterol. It picks it up, and it goes into the endothelial cells. The problem there is that oxidized cholesterol does not look native to your macrophages, your immune system. It actually looks like bacteria. The macrophages move in to try and clean up what it thinks is bacteria, which is nothing more than oxidized cholesterol, and it creates a whole bunch of inflammation inside your arterial wall. The real culprit is oxidized cholesterol. 6WDWLQVDUHORZHULQJFKROHVWHURODFURVVWKHERDUG/HW¶VORRNDWVRPHRIWKHVWDWLQstudies. The relative risk LVUHGXFHG+HUH¶VWKHSUREOHPZLWKPHGLFDOVWXGLHVDQGVWDWLQis a really good example/HW¶VVD\\RXKDYHSHRSOH, and four people are JRLQJWRJHWKHDUWGLVHDVH7KHQ\RXJLYHDVWDWLQDQGQRZRQO\WZRGR7KH\¶UHJRLQJWRVD\³2KP\*RG:HKDYHD50 SHUFHQWUHGXFWLRQLQ\RXUULVNIRUKHDUWGLVHDVH´ I took that a little bit out of proportion there E\XVLQJEXWLW¶VVWLll a 50 percent relative risk, but yRXURYHUDOOULVNWREHJLQZLWKZDVQHJOLJLEOH,W¶VVWXSLGVFLHQFH,W¶Vliterally foolish, idiotic science. DM::HOO«
RR: Go ahead.
RR: Of course. [Laughs]
DM: This differentiation between absolute and relative risk, they use it all the time to
pervert statistics.
RR: Yeah. It perverts all statisticVLQPHGLFLQH7KDW¶VFRUUHFW7KHDbsolute risk is not
:KDWWKH\DOVRGRQ¶WWHOO\RXLVWKDWZKLOH\RXPLJKWDFWXDOO\VDYHVRPHERG\IURPDheart attack out of that thousand people you havHWRWUHDWWKHUH¶VVRPHWKLQJRQWKHother end where somebody gets a toxicity from it, RUPD\EH$O]KHLPHU¶VGLVHDVHRUmaybe some other condition, from taking the drug. The overall morbidity and mortality is unchanged. All that drug companies and the FDA are looking for is what symptom or lab level you are suppressing. 7KH\¶UHQRWORRNLQJDWLWIRUlong-term outcomes. TKDW¶VDEVROXWHIDLOLQJof the American medical system, wKHUHDOOWKDW\RX¶UHGRLQJLV\RXDUHPHDVXULQJWRsuppress a symptom or a lab value like cholesterol and you are not looking at what happens to these people 10 or 15 years later, which is identical to the vaccine problem. DM:Absolutely.
they ever looked at the all-cost morbidity and the mortality of a group of vaccinated
versus unvaccinated children, I am convinced that it would be a totally different story.
DM:And it will be. We seek to bring these types of studies ± DVWKH\¶UHPDGHDYDLODEOH ±
for generating revenues now from WKHGUXJFRPSDQLHVEHFDXVHLW¶VEHFRPLQJ
increasingly difficult to pass new drugs.
RR: Yeah.
DM:7KHUH¶VVWLOODELWRIconfusion. As you mentioned, the big challenge is the oxidized
cholesterol and not so much the total cholesterol. But tKHUH¶VVWLOOVRPHYDOXHWRPRQLWRU
your cholesterol levels. That is because I GRQ¶WWKLQNZHKDYHDFXUUHQWDssay for
oxidized cholesterol, but there are other things that we can look at that still validate the
value of cholesterol being healthy. But when we look at these fractions and ratios, that
can actually be highly predictive of heart disease and not necessarily have to use a
statin drug to improve that. Can you address that issue, which concerns the confusion
that people have in some of these ratios?
WKDW¶VERJXV,QIDFWHYHQLQP\IDPLO\, I have close first-degree family members asking
me about cholesterols that might go up in 230 or 2OLNHLQP\PRPZKR¶VVWLOODOLYH
Her HDL ratio was great. +'/LVFRQVLGHUHGWKH³JRRGFKROHVWHURO´,W¶VWKHhigh-density lipoprotein compared to LDL. LDL is generally more vulnerable to oxidation. HDL can be analogous to the railroad cars that might haul cholesterol back from the arteries to the liver for reprocessing and elimination. I do like to look at these ratios. In addition, you can get LDL subtractions to look at which subtraction of LDL might be worse than others. When somebody comes to me with a vascular problem, I look at several things. I look at cholesterol. I look at the ratios. I am interested in triglycerides(ZKHUH,¶PJoing to come back in a moment.)I like to know what their iron or ferritin level is, because iron participates in the oxidation of cholesterol. ,OLNHWRNQRZZKDWWKHLUKRPRF\VWHLQHLVEHFDXVH,EHOLHYHWKDW¶VDULVNIDFWRU,Wcertainly is going to show potential deficiencies of crucial B vitamins. I like to know what their LPA is ± lipoprotein (a) ± that might deal with the coagulability of your blood. There are several other smaller factors that are really worth looking at, which when you pay attention WR\RXFDQKHOSWRPRGLI\VRPHRQH¶VULVN You and I have different ideas on diet, Joe. We can agree to disagree on it. I¶PDYHJHWDULDQ<RXNQRZWKDW$QG,NQRZWKDW\RX¶UHQRWDYHJHWDULDQDQG,UHVSHFWWKDW, WRR%XWRQHWKLQJWKDW,WKLQNZH¶UHJRLng to agree on 100 percent is the impact of KHDWLQJRLO:KHQ\RXKHDWRLOLQWKHSUHVHQFHRIR[\JHQRLOLVXQVDWXUDWHG,¶PWDONLQJabout unsaturated oil now. DM:Traditional vegetable oils.
RR: Exactly, traditional vegetable oils. When you have heated oil in the presence of
oxygen, you have made it rancid automatically ± right on the spot, LW¶V oxidized oil.If
cholesterol comes into contact with this, now you have oxidized cholesterol, because
cholesterol exists as esters with these fatty acids. I am a proponent of eating far more
uncooked food and certainly, zero foods cooked in oil.
,GRQ¶WWHOOP\SDWLHQWVWREHYHJHWDULDQ,DPIRUVSLULWXDOUHDVRQVVR,FDQQRWLPSRVHthat RQDQ\ERG\,IWKH\ZDQWWRHDWPHDWILQH,¶PLQDJUHHPHQWZLWK\RXKHUHgrass-fed, organic beef, without all the antibiotic additives. Go ahead and eat your meat. I GRQ¶WWKLQNWKDW¶VJRLQJWRKXUWDQ\ERG\%XW,VWURQJO\XUJHWKHPWRHDWPRUHUDZuncooked foods, because heat is damaging the oils, which in turn is going to damage the cholesterol and lead to vascular disease problem. How do I know this? A lot of people claimed that being vegetarian makes you healthier. I have been to India. I went to do some volunteer work in a charitable hospital. At this charitable hospital, WKH\¶UHYHJHWDULDQV,QIDFWWKH\¶UHFORVHWRYHJDQ, but they do eat dairy. DM:Like most of India.
bad it is. At this charitable hospital, there are a lot of poor people who are peasants.
They are as slender as you and me. Your viewers can see our body morphology. These SHRSOHDUHDFWXDOO\VNLQQLHU7KH\¶UHZRUNLQJYHU\KDUGLQWKHILHOGVDQG\HWWKH\¶UHORVLQJOLPEVLQWKHLUVIURPYDVFXODUGLVHDVHDQGGLDEHWHV,¶PVFratching my head thinking that these people are vegetarian and tKH\¶UHHDWLQJIRRGWKDWWKH\grow, and yet they are losing their limbs from vascular disease and getting heart attacks in their 30s. What it all boils down to is that in India, they cook their IRRGWRREOLYLRQLQRLO7KH\¶UHdestroying themselves for GRLQJWKDW7KH\¶UHGHVWUR\LQJWKHQXtritional content of the food, and tKH\¶UHHDWLQJR[LGL]HGIDWVZKLFK\Ru can call oxidized cholesterol, which is destroying their vascular system. DM:Yeah. The other thing about these vegetable oils is that they are primarily soy and
corn. The vast majority of those crops ± at least in the United States ± are genetically
RR:Oh, yes!
DM:Not only do you have the issue of the polyunsaturated fats being oxidized, but you
also have these other variables, which include things like glyphosate and Bt toxin.
Glyphosate is Roundup, DQGWKDW¶s pervasive in all of these crops. Then you got the
your system. So,there are a number of reasons, but tKHIDFWWKDWWKH\¶UHR[LGL]HGLV
clearly a high-priority one.
,¶PZRQGHULQJRQWKHFKROHVWHURO,WLVDTXHVWLRQWKDWFRPHVXSDORWinour forums. From your view, is there ever any level of total cholesterol? WHERWKDJUHHWKDWLW¶VUHODWLYHO\not something that we look at, but there are the outliers and the extremes. RR: Yeah.
DM: Is there ever a level that you would become concern about and ever consider the
use of a statin drug to modify that? The one exception that I have targeted as a
challenge is the familial hypercholesterolemia. We have a genetic defect that is typically
over 330 in my experience. You will rarely ever have a person with that disease with a
total cholesterol less WKDQ,¶PZRQGHULQJZKDW\RXr thoughts are, and what you
have been able to get from literature and clinical experience.
range of about 310 to 350 that I have looked at. Certainly, above 350, I would consider
a genetic component. Here is a hard gene that we could call malfunctLRQ7KDW¶VWKHZD\
Yeah. I do think that controlling the total cholesterol would be a benefit for those people. They¶UHIHZDQGIDUEHWZHHQEXWWKH\H[LVW,ZRXOGJRZLWKred yeast rice first, before I would deal with statin. DM:,VQ¶Wthat the Mevacor, though? ,VQ¶WLWWKHVDPH"
RR: ,W¶VEDVLFDOO\WKHVDPHWKLQJ,W¶VJRWMevacor in it, which is why the FDA ruled that
,ZRXOGUDWKHUXVHWKDWEHFDXVHLW¶VDZKROHIRRG7KHUHDUHSUHWW\JRRGVWXGLHVRXWthere showing that whole red yeast rice not only helps protect you from that, but animals DOVROLYHORQJHUZKHQWKH\¶UHRQLW%HLQJDZKROHIRRGWKHUHPD\EHa big advantage to it. Always ± whether you¶UH using red yeast rice or a statin drug ± be sure to take Coenzyme Q10 or ubiquinol, because the same enzyme that makes the cholesterol also participates with CoQ10 production. DM:Yeah. And the benefit from something like red yeast rice may not be related to total
cholesterol, too. There is some benefit that is described to statins: small and much less
than as being purported.But it may not be related, or if it had anything to do with
cholesterol, it might have to do with inflammation.
RR: Exactly.
DM:This might be potent anti-inflammatories. Then that is, of course, beneficial.
RR: I heard a great lecture. It was given by Jim Roberts. Are you familiar with him?
DM:I think I have heard of him. Yeah. Is he a cardiologist?
interventional FDUGLRORJ\+H¶VEULOOLDQW, and he gave a lecture to the joint ACAM and
iMosaic Conference a year or two ago. He was the keynote address, and he talked
about statins in it. His lecture was outstanding. He pointed out that he still uses statins
in selected cases ± very narrow cases ±mainly because of its effect on inflammation.
Then I got up in the Q and A, stood at the mic, and ,VDLG³+H\-LPGR you have any experience with oxidation WKHUDS\"´+HUHDOO\GLGQ¶WKDYHDORW+HVDLGWKDWKHQHHGVWRget into it, because he realized that there are nutritional and IV strategies and lifestyle changes that could potentially even tromp statins or anything else used for inflammation. DM:<HDK:H¶OOWDONDERXWWKDWLQRXUIXWXUHLQWHUYLHZ,¶PZRQGHULQJ ± because heart
disease of course, is one of the leading causes of death,LW¶s kind of depending on your
age, and you have alternating risks with that and cancer ± what tools or assays do you
use to identify the people at high risk and that are in need of more aggressive
RR: As you mentioned, if their total cholesterol is over 300 or 330, I would consider the
I would look for ways to reduce the potential impact of toxic cholesterol metabolism.
,ZDQWWRXVHP\VHOIDVDQH[DPSOH,NQRZWKDW,¶PQRWDVDWKOHWLFDV\ou are, Joe, because you talk about exercising every day. I get good exercise perhaps once a week, and I walk most days. But here I am at 62, DQGP\EORRGSUHVVXUHRQDEDGGD\LVRYHU7KDW¶VDEDGGD\2QDJRRGGD\my blood pUHVVXUHLVDERXWRYHU7KDW¶VWKHEORRGSUHVVXUHRID\RXQJKHDOWK\adolescent. PeopOHVD\WRPH³2K\RXPXVWEHVLFN<RXPXVWQRWKDYHJRRGDGUHQDOV´ Last September, I finished the John Muir Trail. The John Muir Trail is the longest, roughest, toughest, and highest altitude trek in the United States, South of Alaska. I did it as an organic, raw food vegetarian. What I try to do first with my patients is to get them to clean up their lifestyle, so that ZKDWWKH\¶UHGRLQJLQWKHLUOLIHZLOOQRWKDve toxic effects on their apparently elevated FKROHVWHURO,¶PVD\LQJ³DSSDUHQWO\HOHYDWHG´EHFDXVH,GRQ¶WEHOLHYHWKDW*RGPDNHVmistakes. If you walk into me with a cholesterol of 240, I think that your body has that level for a reason. Maybe, just maybH\RXUERG\LVFU\LQJIRUPRUHYLWDPLQ',W¶VDVNLQJyour liver to make more cholesterol so that it can convert, or maybe your body wants PRUHWHVWRVWHURQHRUDQRWKHUVWHURLGKRUPRQHVRLW¶s calling for more raw material. ,GRQ¶WNQRZKRZPXFK,ZDQWWo interrupt those processes with sledgehammers like statins. I would prefer to get your body not to oxidize the cholesterol by eliminating processed, refined foods. My mantra is ³1o fast, fried, refined, or processed foods.´ 7KDW¶VILUVWRQWKHOLVW.HHSyour diet 70 to 80 percent raw living food, and what you do with the rest ± ,GRQ¶WFDUHLI\RXZDQWWRHDWPHDWFKLFNHQILVKDQGHJJV)LQHJRDKHDGDQGHDWLW-XVWGRQ¶WIU\LW(DWDOOWKHPHDW\RXZDQWZLWKLQWKDWSHUFHQW7KHrest of it, try tRNHHSLWRUJDQLFQRW*02XQSURFHVVHGDQGUDZVR\RX¶UHQRWdestroying the fatty acids. I personally believe that I have found the underlying cause of heart disease or the SULQFLSDOFDXVHRIKHDUWGLVHDVHLQWKLVFRXQWU\7KDW¶VWKHIDFWWKDWZHDUHKeating these HVVHQWLDOIDWW\DFLGVWKHVHXQVDWXUDWHGIDWW\DFLGV:H¶UHR[LGL]LQJWKHP, DQGZH¶UHtaking them right into our body already rancid. I think that is one of the primary causes. DM:<HDK,W¶VDFRPSHOOLQJDUJXPHQWWRDYRLGUHDOO\HDWLQJat restaurants, because
almost all of them are going to use it, and you would be exposing yourself. And you
GRQ¶WVD\³:HOO,¶PQRWGRLQJWKDWP\VHOI´'o you eat at a restaurant or do you buy any
processed food? Because you can be guaranteed just about every processed food has
a heated oxidized vegetable fat in it. 7KDW¶Vthe key. I really rarely go out to eat. I almost
have all my meals at home. I just probably eat out less than once a month. I guess
WKHUH¶VDOOWKHSULQFLSOH, too, where you can follow these rules. But you get a five percent
grace period, so your body can tolerate a little abuse. AVORQJDV\RX¶UHGRLQJWKHright
things most of the time, you would probably stay healthy.
/HW¶VJHWEDFNWRWKHWRROVDQGULVNIDFWRUVWKDW\RXZRXOGKLJKOLJKW:KDt do you recommend? The vitamin D3 level, of course. You need to check on your 25-hydroxyvitamin D for heart disease. RR: 7KHUH¶VDQRWKHUUHDOO\JRRGRQH7KDW¶VEORRGYLVFRVLW\,DFWXDOO\DGGUHVVHGWKDWLQ
Second Opinion some years ago. Blood viscosity is the thickness of your blood. Why
does my blood thickness play a role? If your blood is thick, you need more pressure to
by shaking it to get it to move out.
If \RXUEORRGLVPRUHWKLFN\RX¶UHJRLQJWRQHHGKLJKHUSUHVVXUH7KDWSUHVVXUHDQGWKDWthickness is going to cause sheer on the endothelial cells where blood vessels bifurcate, where your artery VSOLWVLQWRWZRDUWHULHV7KDW¶VEHHQVKRZQ A blood viscosity test might be a good test. Meridian Valley Lab is now doing it in :DVKLQJWRQ,¶PPHQWLRQLQJLWEHFDXVH,NQRZWKDWLW¶VQRZDYDLODEOH7KHQWKHTXHVWLRQLV« DM:I think Dr. Wright just wrote about this. I know he sent me an article on it, and I
%XWLW¶VQRWDVWDQGDUGWHVW0HULGLDQ9DOOH\/DELVQRWDFRQYHQWLRQDOGLDJQRVWLFlaboratory that most physicians would have an access to. They can, but they have to go RXWRIWKHLUZD\,W¶VQRWDQuest or a lab corp,W¶VVRUWRIDQXQXVXDOODEIURPWKDWSHUVSHFWLYH,W¶VDFWXDOO\'U:ULJKW¶VZLIH± I believe ± who runs that lab. DM:It is a useful test. You have used that test in your practice, and you have found a
correlation pretty well with the risk for heart disease?
RR: I have used the test. I think it does correlate with the risk for heart disease. I
DM:Oh, there are others?
because if your blood has high viscosity, then OHW¶VORRNDWZK\\RXUEORRGKDVKLJK
One of my teachers in viscosity, the guy who actually developed the test, VDLG³'RQDWHEORRG´%HFDXVHZKHQ\RXGRQDWHEORRGQRWRQO\DUH\RXVKHGGLQJLURQZKLFKZHGRQ¶Wwant to excess on« The reason why women live longer than men is not so much ovaries and WHVWLFOHV,W¶VJRWPRUHWRGRZLWh the uterus. The uterus sheds that extra iron. Then when women go into menopause and they stop shedding iron, they very rapidly catch up to us. Donating blood is a good idea, because you replace old cells that are not flexible with new healthy cells that are more flexible, reducing blood viscosity. Nutritional supplements can play a role, and key nutritional supplements, one that can prevent fat oxidation is, vitamin E. In fact, vitamin E is in your cell membrane just for that purpose: to protect the lipids from getting oxidized. You can use the already high-quality tocopherol supplements. I would get mixed tocopherols with alpha and gamma, and not WKH« DM:Delta.
RR: Yeah, and the delta. Thank you. I also like tocotrienols, which might be a more
active form.
written a lot about vitamin E pretty much his whole life. He has a PhD in Biochemistry.
7KDW¶VKLVFRQFOXVLRQ, too, (after pretty much a whole lifetime) that you need a
combination not in high doses. You need the D-alpha, of course, but the last thing you
want to do is take this concentrated D-alpha form of vitamin E of XQLWV7KDW¶VD
:H¶UHDFWXDOO\ORRNLQJDWSURYLGLQJWKHVXSSOHPHQWEDVHGRQWKRVHEXWWKHUH¶VDORWRIhomework that goes into it. Because the challenge is that I believe the base for most of all the vitamin E in the world at this point is from soy. RR:[Laughs]
DM:That is the starting substrate, so we got to work to sort of work through those
and challenging issue to bypass. There are large numbers of volumes involved. But
have been a number of studies coming out that show nuts and seeds prevent heart
DM:Ideally, raw.
RR:Exactly, raw! Nuts and seeds are powerful sources of essential fatty acids, which
rancidity. When you eat the whole food ± this is what I espoused to my patients ±
uncooked like nuts and seeds, yRX¶UHJHWWLQJWKH()$VDQG\RX¶UHJHWWLQJWKHZKROH
vitamin E component as well.
With respect to the viscosity, I actually GLVFXVVHGLWZLWK'U:ULJKWEXWKHGLGQ¶WKDYHDlot of experiences. One of the emerging ± and I believe super exciting ± aspects of viscosity and actually natural medicine is a concept called Earthing or grounding, which ,¶PVXUH\RX¶UHIDPLOLDUZLWK7KHSULPDU\ZD\LWZRUNV± at least the speculation ± is on inflammation and mediated through improving the zeta potential or their pulse capacity ofthe individual red blood cells, which would clearly impact viscosity. To my best knowledge, no one has done studies on viscosity measurements, but it ZRXOGVHHPWKDWWKDW¶VWKHZD\WKHEHQHILWVDUHPHGLDWHG,W¶VDVLPSOHDQGEDVLFWKLQJ,WGRHVQ¶WFRVWDQ\WKLQJLI\RXZDQWWROLYHRXWVLGHLQWKHZLOGDQGZDONZLWK\RXUbarefoot on the ground ± earth, not wood or plastic or rubber. [Laughs] You get this transfer of free electrons from the earth into your body, which has this DELOLW\WRGHFUHDVHEORRGYLVFRVLW\,¶PZRQGHULQJLI\RXKDYHDQ\H[SHULHQFHSHUVRQDOO\or clinically, or if you have any other insights on that. RR: ,GRQ¶WKDYHSHUVRQDOH[SHULHQFHZLWKWKDWEXWP\WHDFKHUVDOO through the years
lakes, go swimming in oceans, and allow that negative energy of the earth to come into
idea, which we just got ± my wife and I ± which is a sheet that has silver thread
impregnated in it. You sleep on it. You plug it into the grounding outlet of your wall. I
DM:Give it a try. I have been using it for six years.
RR:[Laughs] Oh, you came upon it first!
RR: Do you like it?
integrate LWZKHQ,¶PH[HUFLVLQJ, too, which is important. Because theoretically, it should
promoting in the near future.
I think another DUHDWKDWZH¶UHUHDOO\JRLQJWREHWUHPHQGRXVO\SURPRWLQJand KRSHIXOO\«,KDYHEHHQDEOHWRSRSXODUL]HDIHZDUHDVLQP\H[SHULHQFHLQWKHPHGLDRInatural medicine. One was the use of vitamin D (I helped popularize that), krill, and astaxanthin. But I think one of the ones that I think may be more powerful than anything, or at least is comparable to vitamin D, is the use of fermented vegetables that are loaded with healthy bacteria. And when I mean loaded, I mean loaded. Because most people listening to us would know that the average and even our healthy complete probiotics, I think two of them have 70 billion, which is a lot. I mean, most of them are like five or 10. Ours have 70. With six ounces of fermented vegetables ± ZHMXVWGLGWKHDQDO\VLVDQG,KDYHQ¶WVKDUHGit publicly yet ± 10 trillion bacteria. DM:Which is 10 percent of the entire bacterial population of the human colon, 10 trillion
make them available at some point that people can purchase them, but our main goal is
to teach people how to do it themselves. It takes time, effort, and energy, buWLW¶VDSUHWW\
simple process, and I think that it could have phenomenal benefit.
The reason that I mentioned this is because one of the questions that I want to ask you is about periodontal health. I have had a lifelong struggle of plaque, which is clearly UHODWHGWREDFWHULD,WKLQNLW¶VStrep mutans that gets in there and causes this lactic acid and causes the production of plaque on your teeth. My plaque was so bad I had to go to the dental hygienist every month, every month, to have my teeth cleaned. Recently, I staUWHGWKHVHIHUPHQWHGYHJHWDEOHVDQG,¶PDFtually doing some [inaudible 33:27]. Now ,¶PGRZQHYHU\WKUHHPRQWKV7KHK\JLHQLVWWROGPHWKDW,KDGDSKHQRPHQDOLPSURYHPHQW,W¶VWKHRQO\WKLQJ,KDYHHYHUGRQHHYHU, to have an influence on this. I was just listening to some lectures from some scientist, who actually I think is the head RIWKH0LFURELRORJ\'HSDUWPHQWRI3HGLDWULF'HQWLVWU\DW&KLOGUHQ¶V0HPRULDO and at whom I was surprised, because he seems like his a conventionally trained guy. But he was really explaining how when you influence all these different strains of Lactobacillus, they actually are more potent than antibiotics for the bad strains,GLGQ¶WXQGHUVWDQGwhy; I knew it had some benefit, but I didQ¶W really understand it. Obviously, this is sort of for periodontal, but it should help for cardiac health, too, and just overall health in JHQHUDO,W¶VDQDPD]LQJGHWR[LILHUEHFDXVH\RX¶UHKDYLQJOLWWOHFKHODWRUV,W¶VVKRFNLQJO\good stuff that I think everyone needs to have. RR: There was an article that came out and that I wrote about for Second Opinion. I
you take those same organisms and \RXSXWLWLQ\RXUPRXWK«-XVWOLNHZKDW\RXVDLG
mouth. You reduce the Strep mutans and you get a more favorable effect of beneficial
germs even in your mouth. I think this is phenomenal information.
DM:Yeah. It was kind of a tangential question about periodontal health, cholesterol
levels, and heart health. Because I thought that it was an important, sort of emerging,
VWUDWHJ\RIDFHQWXULHV¶ROGtraditional approach of using fermented foods. Almost all
cultures use them except for America [Laughs] ± for the most part ± unless your
relatives are from Europe, Asia, or something, who are using these types of food. In
RR:If you reduce inflammation ± and bacteria do play a role in inflammation. There are
good germs and there are bad germs. We know that good germs help program the
/HW¶VWDONDERXW\RXUPRXWKIRUDPRPHQW,I\RXKDYHWKHEDGJHUPVin your mouth, there are going to be circulating germs. We know that. Every time you brush your teeth, \RX¶UHJRLQJWRJHWFLUFXODWLQJJHUPV6RPHRIWKHVHDUHEDGJX\VVR\RXULPPXQHsystem has to go and round them up. ,¶PMXVWVSHFXODWLQJULJKWKHUHEHFDXVH,GRQ¶t have hard science, but it seems to make sense to me that if you now start getting rid of the Strep mutans and the other bad germs in your mouth ± and there are bad germs. We know that a human bite is more toxic than a dog bite, because our mouth harbors far more toxic organisms. If we get PRUHEHQHILFLDOJHUPVLQRXUPRXWKWKHUH¶VJRLQJWREHOHVVLQIODPPDWLRQLQRXUERG\± SHULRG7KHOHVVLQIODPPDWLRQWKHUH¶VOHVVR[LGL]HGELRFKHPLFDOUHDFWLRQVon your lipids. DM That makes sense.
RR: Yeah.Inflammation induces oxidation of lipids.
relatively transient. They might live for a few days, a week, or a few weeks at the most. I
think as you establish larger amounts of them in the colon, you can change the species
and the strains that are growing in your gut. You do need to replenish them. You just
When you ferment these vegetables in a quart, say a quart of cabbage and some other vegetables you put in there. There are specific instructions that we have them all detailed out. You can put like three or four capsules. Between those,there might be a 100 and 150 billion. But essentially you are creating a farm where those 100 to 150 ELOOLRQJURZXSWRWULOOLRQ<RXPXOWLSO\WKHPDKXQGUHGRIWLPHV,W¶VMXVWDIDUPRUHefficient way of changing that component. ,¶PVXUH\RX¶UHIDPLOLDUZLWKElie Metchnikoff over a century ago, who really promoted this type of therapy, changing the colonic flora. I think it has really been ignored for the most part even in complementary medicine. RR: This is a phenomenal way to regain health. I wanted to ask you, has it actually
DM:No. We did it. We did the independent analysis. We actually had a microbiology lab
do the numbers. We work with a company that actually invented the CFUs, the colony-
forming units. They came up with that whole terminology and weighted indexing. We
went to that company and had them analyze these vegetables. With it, came out the 10
trillion in six ounces.
RR: Good! If I write about it, I want to credit you with that discovery.
easy objective test. A very few people appreciate the value of this, so why would
someone look at it?
people to implement it into their lifestyle. IW¶VQRWMXVWFRORQLFLVVXHV\HDVWLVVXHVRU
intestinal problems like irritable bowel syndrome, but it really affects almost every
1RZLWZRQ¶WZRUNLI\RXKDYHDFRQYHQWLRQDO$PHULFDQGLHW,ISHUFHQWRI\RXUGLHWLVcarbohydrates, most of which are refined and sugars, you could have a quart of YHJHWDEOHVDGD\DQGLW¶VMXVWQRWJRLQJWRZRUNEHFDXVH\RXKDYHWRJLYHWKHPWKHright substrates to grow. Assuming that you have eliminated the toxic component and the grains, starches, and sugars for the most part, then it will work like a miracle. It will change your life. ,W¶VVLPSOHEDVLFV<RXKDYHEHHQGRLQJWKLVORQJHUWKDQPH DFWXDOO\FRQVLGHUDEO\longer than me.) But would you agree that the more you learn, the clearer it becomes that getting healthy is pretty simple? ,W¶VVLPSOHEDVLFFRQFHSWV,W¶VQRWFRPSOH[ RR: Bless you, Joe.
understanding to get to the simplicity. Because the people are so sick from what they
have been doing, so mixed up with all these drugs and chemicals that conventional
guys have thrown at them, that their hair is a breath away from dying. It takes some
sophisticated assistance to help them ± even in some of the things that you do, like
oxidative medicine, which is not very simple but very powerful. Once that in-depth
strategy and process is implemented, then you can go back to the simplicity.
RR: Joe, I want your viewers to know that I have been doing what we call alternative or
integrative medicine since 1983. I got started with chelation in 1985 or 1986, and then I
I only know one of my patients who actually went on and got it. He did have a genetic problem. I believe he had DJHQHWLFFKROHVWHUROSUREOHP7KDW¶VQRWEDGWRKDYHreversed all but one person without surgery. DM: 1R,W¶VQRWEDGDW DOOEXWWKHFRQYHUVHRIWKDW«I have had a number of people,
many of them friends and even relatives, who have a heart or chest pain. They go to the
a widow maker, you got severe coronary heart disease, and you need to go in for VXUJHU\LPPHGLDWHO\´,WKLQNP\EURWKHU-in-law just had this and had an open-heart surgery to get the surgery done. ThHSHUFHSWLRQLVWKDWWKHLUOLIH¶Vat risk. It takes a pretty significant amount of faith to ignore the goal standard, which is to have a surgery and to do these alternative or complementary techniques to put your life on the line essentially. Ideally, you want to do WKHPEHIRUHVR\RXGRQ¶WJHWWRWKDWSRLQW. But my experience is that there are going to go with it almost every time, even though WKH\¶UHyour friends or relatives. RR: ,W¶VWUXH7KH\GR7KH\¶UHVFDUHGWRGHDWKOLNHZLWKFDQFHUWKHGRFWRUVD\V³:H
need to operate on you right away, or you need to start the chemo in three days,
because it might spread.´Well, the science has VKRZQWKDWLW¶VDOUHDG\VSUHDG
I want to mention one thing about genetics. Even in my own family, I have a first-degree family member, my brother. ,KDYHEHHQRQP\EURWKHU¶VFDVHDERXW diet for some time QRZ+LVGLHWKDVQ¶WEHHQEDG,WKDVQ¶WEHHQWKHKRUULEOH$PHULFDQGLHWEXWLWDOVRKDVQ¶WEHHQWKHZD\,HDWYou would expect us to have similar genetics 50 percent, and KHLVWKHVDPHEORRGW\SHDVPH2YHUWKH\HDUVKHKDVFRPSODLQHGWRPHWKDWKH¶Vwatching his cholesterol go up and his blood pressure go up. A couple of months ago at a family reunion, we pass around the blood pressure cuff. Because my dad is 93 years oldKH¶VVWLOODOLYHDQGKe measures his blood pressure ZLWKDEORRGSUHVVXUHFXIIHYHU\GD\VR,GRQ¶WKDYHWRGRLW,W¶VDPDFKLQHWKDWGRHVLWso iW¶VQRWVXEMHFWLYH:HSDVVHGWKLVFXIIaround the table. My brother takes his blood pressure ± hH¶s on a drug, mind you ± and his blood pressure comes back at a 140 over 7KHQWKHEORRGSUHVVXUHFXIIJHWV« DM: Controlled. [Laughs]
RR:[Laughs] Controlled, exactly. They passed it to me, I wrapped it, and his eyeballs ± I
could literally see his eyeballs pop out of his head, and almost land on the floor when
the machine speaks my blood pressure of 88 over 56. ,W¶VWhe same cuff he just used.
and only four weeks into it, his blood pressure has dropped by seven points. Diet only.
80s and my mom in her late 70s. Neither of them takes any drugs. Fortunately, they do
actually listen to what I advise them to do, unlike my siblings ± most of my siblings ±
When they have to see someone for consultation, for an insurance exam or something,
DGUXJ,W¶VLQFRPSUHKensible to them, because the average person on that age is like
on 15 or 20.
RR: Ask yourself, what synthetic petrochemical pharmaceutical did God make you with
a genetic deficiency of?
DM: Yes. Then we know that the answer is zero, of course.
RR: Right.
DM: We have another topic to discuss ±oxidative medicine ± in our future interview, but
,¶PZRQGHULQJif there are any concluding comments you want to make about this topic
of cholesterol and helping people understand it?
around 300 or higher ± ,GRQ¶WEHOLHYHWKDWLW¶Vgoing to be indicative.
The simplest thing you can do and the most powerful is to clean up your diet first. Eat more raw, uncooked, living foods organic, grown around you, ripe when in season ± DQFLHQW&KLQHVHZLVGRP,¶PQRWRQ\RXUFDVHWREHDYHJHWDULan. Get exercise. Exercise can overcome ± ,¶PQRWJRLQJWRVD\DQ\WKLQJ ± but a lot. We know that people have eaten toxic diets for years, including a lot of cooked foods.When they get exercise, it can overcome a lot of that. These are things that cause absolutely nothing for you to do. I like your concept of eating fermented foods, keeping your mouth clean. The so-called antioxidants, particularly vitamin E or the natural vitamin Es, are good. Especially if you can get it in your food, tKHVHGRQ¶WFRVWDnything. I assure you that in most casesLI\RXVWDUWGRLQJWKHVHWKLQJV\RX¶OOVHHWKDW\RXUcholesterol drops. Mine is 175. My triglycerides are 100 or less. I use triglycerides as a marker, because the higher that is, it tells me the more refined carERK\GUDWHV\RX¶UHeating. 7KHPRUHUHILQHGFDUERK\GUDWHV\RX¶UHHDWLQJWKHPRUHLQVXOLQ\RX¶UHJRLQJWRKDYHThe more insulin you have, the bigger your EHOO\+HUHLW¶VJRLQJWREHZLWKLnsulin driving all those carbohydrates into this raw fat, which generates inflammation and which is the same inflammation that might come out of your mouth. These are the things that you can do that GRQ¶WFRVWDSHQQ\DQGFDQDOWHU\RXUKHDOWKGUDPDWLFDOO\ DM: Yeah. Just one minor tweak is that the triglyceride level you mentioned would be
RR: Thank you.
DM:ThDW¶V the reflection of the bad carbohydrates%XWLW¶VDYHU\SRZHUIXOWHVWIDVWLQJ
triglycerides. In fact, I look at fasting triglycerides over HDL as perhaps maybe one of
their ratio is really potent, VRLW¶Vpowerful, too.
I want to thank you for all that you have done and will continue to do, and for taking the time with us to share your insights on this important area. We look forward to having you back. RR:Thank you.


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